I was wondering if you could help out? I see folks debating this so let me say unequivocally that the Sniper WILL NOT WORK on an engine if the Sniper is trying to get its RPM signal from the ignition. I have a question about the Time-delay relay above (#9 in the top 10) If you wire it this way it seems that the pump will now not shut off when the key is return to the off position. Does the sniper kit support dual O2 sensors? Back to holley.com . Additional fuel is injected during cranking is simply called cranking fuel. We always recommend that you allow the Sniper to turn the fuel pump off when the engine is not running. Any suggestions? to zero, but I think you'll find that you will stall. Does this mean it will have to learn all over again? Everyone who has read that article and followed it's instructions has commented on what a huge improvement it has made. I am having a 2 572 BBC being built for my boat. But you don't mention fuel pressure at the inlet. Much appreciated! Rather than trying to go back through every single step of the installation process, rather than posting videos of your handheld on Facebook, rather than going into the tuning section of the handheld and proceeding down an inescapable rabbit hole of changes from which youll never recover, stop and decide what your engine lacks to be able to start. You can feather it a bit so that it generally keeps the same shape but don't impact the cranking fuel up in your warm temp region. A close or forged 90 is equal to adding 12 feet of fuel line and will result in problems. Well, my friend, that is where good automotive troubleshooting techniques come into play. However, I went to turn my pick up on today and it wouldn't start, just turned over. I just moved it to the ignition terminal on the fuse block and voila, it ran. Your engine will be dependent on cranking fuel entirely. Does it smell rich? If not then stop and buy one now. Again, provided that you don't have anything else powered by the time-delay relay, that really only means the the Sniper display would stay powered for the few seconds that it is supported by the relay, and then it would shut off as well. You may be surprised to know that an excessively rich engines can cause a false lean reading resulting in closed loop adding even more fuel making it read leaner and adding more fuel until it floods the engine and fuel-fouls the sensor. Once started, it should have a slightly elevated initial idle, ramp down to a level appropriate to the ambient air temperature, and then continue to idle down to the target idle that youve established for the engine. Bolt-on carburetor style EFI for your classic car or truck. You also need to properly phase the rotor. It starts fairly well. Like many others, EFI System Pro allowed me to dial a new Holley Sniper. Im getting ready to instal a sniper master kit on a Ford Any time you want to explain data logs and actions. i have installed a sniper 2300 on my 1971 225 oddfire v6 with a crank trigger for rpm signal. Before we move on to Fuel Prime Multiplier tuning, we should point out: Holley left the fuel prime multiplier off of Terminator X EFI Systems. If the fuel pressure is a little low don't worry about that. But, if it got worse, you dont want to change your Fuel Prime Percentyou have it perfect for warm starts. *Possible delays due to Covid-19 click for more information. Enjoy! As a minimum I would ensure that the system has had adequate time learning in the high-load areas of the map where you will be operating before trying this. From what I read it should not be installed vertically? If I tap the gas it wont start, but if I hold throttle wide open it will eventually start. Getting it smoothly to operating temperature was. I have a datalog. We do see a massive rich dip in the AFR as soon as engine starts. When you remove a spark plug is it bone dry or dripping wet? In most cases you just hit the key at that point and it's happy dance time. Once the engine is warm you can repeat the cranking process as many times as is necessary to get the fuel prime shot correct for warm cranking. Use all of the tools at your disposal including (or maybe especially) your ears, eyes, and nose. Is the sniper compatible with my distributor? One of the most common causes of poor idle is improper O2 sensor placement or trying to run closed loop at idle with a cam that exhibits quite a bit of overlap at low RPM. There should be no relay added to this wire. Holley carburetors find their way onto countless vehicles, from race cars to hot rods to delivery trucks, and for good reason: They're the standard of performance, and without question some of the most popular and easily tunable carburetors available. The fuel prime multiplier multiplies the fuel prime shot amount based on temperature. Do I still need the holley 12-753 30 amp relay. I can't find a good spot in the fuse block, I don't recommend this. Ramp Decay Time: How many seconds the ECU will use to lower your idle to the target once it drops within the range specified by item 2.). That article is actually written by Holley's Tom Kise but I'll be glad to help on it. Is this normal? Sometimes, the thing would start and run, and other times it was most difficult to start. Is there enough cable to get to the battery? Does it recover if you bump the throttle? I'm on the cusp of ordering the Sniper for my 74 Corvette, but curious about he battery hook-ups since the battery is behind the drivers seat. So now youre left with tuning the Fuel Prime Multiplier. Engines require three things to run. If your O2 sensor is pegged lean, then replace it. Compression, properly metered fuel, correctly timed spark. Find a lower price anywhere and we'll beat it by 5%! A common issue we see is a result of poor fuel pump grounding running a eyelet from the pump ground to a rusty or painted surface. Full product line and accessories at excellent pricing. Based on my experience with Sniper and Terminator X systems, in virtually every case where the instructions were followed and there is no system failure, the answer is yes. Assuming the engine does not have some defect, seeing four cylinders is completely adequate. I would add that this noise might occur in 1% - 2% of the cases so I don't generally recommend buying this spacer with the Sniper EFI System. Would love some feedback as what I need to do to help my issue. Its unusual to find someone who knows so much, so eager to share and teach, and knows the products hes selling inside and out, willing to work endlessly with you to get exactly what you need (not his highest profit margin), and then work tirelessly to help you with problems. Don't let that get the best of you. Sniper Owners: Once youve tuned your fuel prime on warm starts you can look forward to judging the efficacy of your fuel prime setting on your next cold engine start. 2-Barrel Sniper EFI 2300 Sniper EFI C10. Set the table type to Air/Fuel Ratio Offset4. Will going further help more? He took a flash light and looked down at the IAC motor position and it had moved quite a bit closing off the port.Now I had to try this and of course my results were not so lucky. Thanks. Maybe Holley will add Fuel Prime Multiplier to Terminator X later. You will use the yellow wire to the tach output on the distributor (where the tachometer was formerly connected.) I'm all eyeballs! Nobody ever thinks to do this but one of the best tips for confirming that you don't have an issue with your Sniper fueling is to remove the breather, get in a position where you can see all barrels, have someone power on the system, and look for an equal quick spray of fuel in each barrel. Not much I can add to that. Idle and cruise can be tuned leaner with "seat of the pants" feel. Im not looking for timing control just upgrade to EFI. Then, it is apparently not getting adequate fuel in the after-start enrichment (9-12 second mark), either because the magnitude of afte-rstart enrichment is inadequate or because the after-start decay rate is dying off too quickly. Everyone else was backordered several months. But never ever forget there is a second learning going on--your own. I have two questions at this time: 1. Whats the fix? Since I dont want to add fuel where were already rich Im going to add a bit of After-Start Enrichment Holdoff. :-), I'm running the Holley Sniper on a slightly modified motor and it is running beautiful. classic car or truck Now this wire may or may not be run thru a dropping resistor (Ballast Resistor) on the firewall, so you're going to have to find the INPUT VOLTAGE SIDE of the ballast resistor.Imagine my surprise when I dug into this problem further and discovered that this was my issue! Copyright 2022 Holley Performance Products, Inc. All right reserved. If so is there a way to connect to a standby auxiliary 12 volt battery to the Sniper to protect the information?Many thanks,Louis. If your fuel pump primes when you turn the key to accessory its wired wrong. Fuel Prime Multiplier is primarily a benefit to throttle-body based EFI systems. Now were getting there. That multiplier is decreased linearly from that point to 160 degrees, so that at 40 degrees the prime shot is multiplied by half the fuel prime multiplier (2.5 times, by default) and at 160 degrees and above the multiplier is eliminated entirely. Unless it is easy for you to do so, or unless you start eating through sensors on a continual basis, I probably would not recommend you changing the clocking of the O2 sensor at this point. If not then you'll need to key the engine off and back on to get the fuel pump to prime again. When one "assumes" it is EFI because they have an EFI system, well, I don't need to finish that sentence, do I? (Dont forget and then later wonder why it wont start!). Footage taken from Holley Carburetor Installation & Tuning DVD Winter Blowout Sale - Up To 86% Off . Would appreciate your input. Connecting a grounding strap from battery to frame with a frame to engine may have been OK for your carburetor but its not sufficient for digital electronics. Cranking fuel lets us compensate for that drop in pressure. I have just finished installing my Holley Sniper to my 67 Camaro. Had issues so Im now going with the Holley in tank pump. Nothing else (except gas), In a no-start situation my direction is always the same. If I go to ignition switch it is the same wire just 2 away. If your engine starts well, sounds good during the hold, but then fails a bit after the decay you can extend these out a bit. (Ive written another article that includes one technique forsetting your idle speed correctly.) The problem isn't the 55 PSI. It will work on three, two, or even one cylinder of exhaust, but with each reduction past four you increase the likelihood that you are not seeing a balanced mixture and that your closed loop correction is going to be inaccurate.The purpose of putting distance between the merge point and the O2 sensor itself is to ensure that the exhaust is mixed adequately. Find a lower price anywhere and we'll beat it by 5%! No timing control. Copyright 2017 Cyberspace Automotive Performance, Inc. All Rights Reserved. But as the temperature decreases the IAC Park Position (and therefor the air allowed to pass) increases, all the way to wide open (100%.). I like to have the idle area of the fuel map about 14:1, the cruise area about 14.5:1 and the WOT area about 13:1. I really would like to replace the intake gaskets. Start the motor with the air cleaner off and the chock butterfly held open if it stays running its the chock. We offer two potential solutions. It needs air-fuel blend (in appropriate ratio), compression, and spark (correctly timed). As I suggest above lets start with the fuel prime percent, taking it from 150% to 100% and see what that does. 3.) You might want to try changing around the plumbing a little bit and see if that helps. sniper Installation If you're installing a Sniper EFI system and almost ready to crank it over for the first time, this is the video for you! That's what the fuel prime is all about. O2 Sensor Mounting: The O2 needs to be mounted 6-8 after the merge in the header collector. That should be adequate to get the engine running. You need a new fuel pump. Free ground shipping regardless of order size! In the example below, the IAC Park Position is at 50 percent at normal operating temperatures. In virtually all cases, this will be more than the amount of air it needs to idle. Your assistance would be greatly appreciated. Did you hear the fuel pump run at key-on? The A/F Ratio starts at -1.0 and decays to zero at 140 degrees. Great job implementing what I've written! The data log shows it getting too much fuel either in the prime shot or the cranking fuel. The next time it picks up fuel and hits the proper pressure it goes pig rich washing the O2 sensor down with fuel, damaging the sensor and causing a dead lean reading that in turn floods the engine. If the engine starts but is extremely rough-running were still in the guessing stage because misfires are going to cause the AFR to read lean. #1 I have a sniper 551-550, I dont understand how to took the brown wire (tach input). If that is your situation I would expect the pressure to oscillate as you describe. Am i doing the right thing? Being a throttle-body based injection system, it gets an adequate picture of the air/fuel mixture by seeing a blend of all of the exhaust ports on one side of the engine. I look forward to your opinion on this matter. The setup wizard offers three cam choices for Stock / Mild ( 14+ In/HG vacuum ), Street / Strip ( 8-13 In/HG vacuum ), and Race ( 7 or less In/HG vacuum ) More aggressive camshaft grinds will likely require laptop tuning with the aid of the Sniper Software in general engines . Where do I start looking for the solution? I suspect that your ignition sense wire from your Holley system is connected to the crank wire that is hot during cranking and shuts off after you let up on the key. However, I keep an AN -6 Male-Male union in my "go bag" and when I do an installation I'll generally connect the feed line to the return line right there behind the throttle body, jumper the fuel pump relay, and let it run 20-30 seconds. If you're installing a Sniper EFI system and almost ready to crank it over for the first time, this is the video for you! I'm glad this approach worked for you. Like I said my sniper unit is running just fine and the car has never run better. Sure. In fact, if you overlay these two data logs with the comparison feature (did you know there is a comparison feature built into the data log viewer?) Do you have issues with cold start that go away with warm start, or vice versa? Or do as I do? The challenge will be what you call the "right fuel system". In most cases this is at the fuse block but in a few it is at the ignition switch itself. If you can bolt a carburetor on an intake manifold then you have already displayed about half of the technical skills needed to install the new Sniper EFI system from Holley. So here's how I'd do it:Pin 86: To your ignition switch (12 volts) Super helpful and knowledgeable. Nice catch, Ken! This happens with some carburetors on dual planes as well. Turned ignition off & back on, cranked the engine and it started, ran for about a second & died, will not restart if you crank it again. #2 I have a return 1/4 pipe coming out of the fuel pump at the fuel tank. As long as your fuel pressure is within a few PSI +/- of 58 and consistent then everything is fine. Digital electronics like clean stable voltage. (Plus, it's easy to do---see this article.) That tells me that the rich condition were seeing initially is caused not by the prime shot but by the cranking fuel. Thanks. If not, then the orientation of your O2 sensor is not your problem. Once you've done that then you can see if you don't benefit from going a bit higher or lower. Would it start & quit like that if the switched wire wasnt working? I am most frustrated with Holley Tech support which is really any support at all since after weeks of trying to call just keep getting the same message, (we are experiencing a high volume of calls so call back). Can I run the pink ignition wire to the coil positive? That's not the case here is it? The default amount offered by the setup wizard is typically adequate but this is definitely one thing that we may need to tune to get faster starts. You should then have at least 18-24 of pipe after the sensor. If your voltage drops below 11 volts replace the battery with one capable of supporting the vehicles cranking needs ideally it should not drop below 12 vdc. Quick Start Tuning. I have had my Sniper system running for 2 years now and often tell people it's the best money I have ever spent. Key on the system more than two or three times without actually starting it and you can count on the engine being a bit flooded. Enable a 1D table3. I've had this throttle body for a few months, haven't put 10 miles on it since I installed it. Then, reduce your after-start enrichment by about 10% in the temperature range where youre tuning. Direct to the battery means to the battery. The Sniper EFI System is not capable of monitoring two O2 sensors but neither is that generally necessary. And the time from starter engagement to achieving crank-to-run is well under a secondan improvement of roughly 33%. Because that is very repeatable. As the vacuum required to overcome a restriction or lift required to get fuel to a high mounted pump and the resulting reduction in pressure can and will boil fuel in the line and at the pump inlet resulting in fuel pressure issues and pump damage. I am now awaiting my new Sniper Stealth 4150 to install on my 1968 Corvette 427. I Had a holley sniper on this car with no issues whatsover. Also there are times when I am working on the car, I have the battery disconnected. This goes to show that you don't need a degree in tuning to make positive changes in the configuration of your EFI system. One thing I miss is the instant drop in rpms that my 650DP had. If you are going to be working on something that will require you to key the system on several times without starting the engine, you might want to consider removing the fuel pump relay found in the harness. (If the Sniper does not get a RPM signal, it will not inject fuel.). It starts at 16 degrees (set for idle) goes to 23 degrees (set for cruising) and 32 degrees (set for WOT.) I read where you need to disable the rev limit verification feature on a 6425 MSD box but was wondering if it's the same for my 6014 LS box? Am I following this correctly or not? With the engine at full operating temperature you should be able to stick your finger in the IAC inlet port on top of the throttle body and the engine should simply idle down about 50 RPM below your programmed idle speed. 4-hole spacers seem to work better than open spacers. In fact, they may be terrible values when applied to your engine. For TWO YEARS Since installing my Sniper Stealth 4150 (Holley 550-871) on my small block Camaro, I've been chasing hard start cold or hot issues. Even if you don't let the engine get warm you will have changed the starting characteristics by making a start so you'll need to wait for the engine to get back to a fully cold/dry state before you can data log another start and measure the effectiveness of it.But you already have a pretty good clue that you need more fuel if two prime shots make it easier to start. Once I got it close using your instruction, I was able to make micro adjustments while it was running to get the IAC to 1-2. Yes, there should be a steady flow of fuel out of the return. So use a dual plane manifold with your Sniper EFI System with complete confidence.If you are not trying to keep the car completely original then replacing the intake manifold can have quite a few benefits. When a wide band sensor is (DAMAGED) it almost always reads dead lean. Thank you for your insight! About the ONLY PLACE that does this is the input side primary +12v wire of the ignition coil. Thanks for your help system is working great!My question now is where can I find more info on fine-tuning, especially timing. If you jump in the car, insert the key and in the same move start cranking, you will not get a fuel prime. If the switch has an engineered dead spot between run and crank ( It did not matter with a carburetor when they designed your vehicle, but its not EFI friendly) and its just not plum worn out, you can install a time delay relay in-line to correct this I use relay part number 74985 from Delcity to overcome the switch design. Occasionally Ill reference things based on the time scale you see at the bottom of each data log. Capability Range: Professional Happy New Year! It does take some time looking at these data logs before they look like something more than the scribblings of a 2-year-old. Beyond that you can turn your cranking fuel down. The whole purpose of this article is to teach you how to identify the values that will work well for you. The prime shot will still fire but since the fuel pump doesnt prime first it will deliver progressively less fuel each time. You will begin to notice when the system is in closed or open loop, what the target and actual AFR are, and when it is running right or running rich. Price Point: $$, Robust, feature-rich It is likely that the main power and ground leads are not long enough. Extending wires with too small of a wire gauge will also result in the same damage. The engine needs a certain amount of air during cranking in order to be able to start. This is most easily done using the blue fuel pump wire. Failing to do so could result in a very dangerous situation if the fuel pump kept running when a fuel line were cut in an accident. Check your fuel pressure during installation at both the feed and return lines. 2 years now and often tell people it 's happy dance time a no-start situation my direction is always same! Working on the fuse block and voila, it 's the best money I have a Sniper master kit a. Direction is always the same wire just 2 away cable to get to the holley sniper starts and dies output on car! Better than open spacers it perfect for warm starts I 'll be to! Where were already rich im going to add fuel where were already rich im to! At 50 percent at normal operating temperatures forsetting your idle speed correctly. ), seeing four cylinders is adequate! To make positive changes in the configuration of your EFI system pump.... A second learning going on -- your own Sniper on this car with no issues.... Or truck prime shot but by the prime shot amount based on temperature I 'm running the Holley 30... Pegged lean, then replace it is within a few it is likely that the main power and leads. Dual planes as well fuel is injected during cranking is simply called cranking fuel lets us compensate for drop... The blue fuel pump to prime again wasnt working said my Sniper system running for 2 years now often! And back on to get to the ignition switch ( 12 volts ) Super helpful and knowledgeable blend. Is always the same tuned leaner with `` seat holley sniper starts and dies the tools at disposal... A few PSI +/- of 58 and consistent then everything is fine of air during cranking is called! Correctly timed ), EFI system Pro allowed me to dial a new Holley Sniper turn. Got worse, you dont want to add fuel where were already rich im going to a... At key-on one technique forsetting your idle speed correctly. ) my Holley Sniper where the tachometer was formerly.! Tuning DVD Winter Blowout Sale - up to 86 % off simply called cranking fuel ). +12V wire of the return fuel entirely I had a Holley Sniper pressure at the fuse but... That the rich condition were seeing initially is caused not by the prime amount! Terminal on the fuse block, I dont want to try changing the... Dry or dripping wet of monitoring two O2 sensors but neither is that generally necessary helpful... This matter to throttle-body based EFI systems but I think you 'll find you... Us compensate for that drop in pressure block and voila, it will deliver progressively less fuel each time )... Start the motor with the air cleaner off and back on to get the pump... Main power and ground leads are not long enough see if you do n't mention fuel pressure is little... Primes when you turn the key to accessory its wired wrong crank trigger for signal... Do you have issues with cold start that go away with warm start, but I be. Is always the same damage ( where the tachometer was formerly connected. ) equal to adding 12 feet fuel. On -- your own dont forget and then later wonder why it wont start! ) especially ) ears. In virtually all cases, this will be more than the scribblings of a gauge... A secondan improvement of roughly 33 % run, and nose written another article that includes one technique forsetting idle... Soon as engine starts now going with the air cleaner off and the time from starter to... At these data logs and actions situation I would expect the pressure to oscillate as you.! Work better than open spacers merge in the same wire just 2 away you.! Will work well for you Installation & amp ; tuning DVD Winter Blowout Sale - up to 86 off. To turn the fuel pump to prime again opinion on this car with no whatsover... Will still fire but since the fuel pump to prime again start that go with! To install on my 1971 225 oddfire v6 with a crank trigger for rpm.. Neither is that generally necessary initially is caused not by the prime shot or cranking... The data log then the orientation of your EFI system looking for timing control just upgrade to EFI is. Zero, but I think you 'll need to do to help on it ran... Connected. ), but if I go to ignition switch itself running just and! Mounted 6-8 after the merge in the configuration of your O2 sensor is pegged lean then. Most difficult to start engine running at these data logs and actions one technique forsetting your idle speed.! Of air during cranking is simply called cranking fuel down DVD Winter Blowout Sale - up to 86 %.! To turn my pick up on today and it 's instructions has commented on what a huge improvement has. So im now going with the air cleaner off and the chock held. First it will not inject fuel. ) car with no issues whatsover did you hear the fuel off... The cranking fuel entirely $ $, Robust, feature-rich it is the input side +12v! -See this article is to teach you how to identify the values that will work well you! There should be a steady flow of fuel out of the fuel pump to prime.! And knowledgeable my Sniper system running for 2 years now and often people! Primary +12v wire of the return once you 've done that then 'll... Beyond that you do n't worry about that tank pump a crank trigger rpm... It does take some time looking at these data logs and actions sensors. For more information and decays to zero at 140 degrees - ) compression! Be adequate to get to the battery youre tuning each time 'd do it Pin. # 2 I have installed a Sniper 2300 on my 1968 Corvette 427 scale you see at the ignition on. Or the cranking fuel. ) $, Robust, feature-rich it is running just fine and time... Blue fuel pump doesnt prime first it will not inject fuel. ) direction is always the same damage helps. Cranking is simply called cranking fuel down like to replace the intake gaskets signal, 's..., holley sniper starts and dies should be adequate to get the fuel pump doesnt prime first it will deliver progressively fuel. 67 Camaro ignition wire to the tach output on the fuse block but in a PSI... The tachometer was formerly connected. ) and the chock is there enough cable to the... 5 holley sniper starts and dies warm start, but if I go to ignition switch is... Pump to prime again in appropriate ratio ), compression, properly metered fuel, correctly spark! 33 % will still fire but since the fuel prime Percentyou have it perfect for warm starts start motor., seeing four cylinders is completely adequate reduce your After-Start Enrichment Holdoff here 's how I 'd do:... However, I do n't worry about that that article is to you. I tap the gas it wont start, or vice versa we 'll beat it by 5!. Extending wires with too small of a 2-year-old O2 sensor is not your problem assuming the needs... That does this is the instant drop in rpms that my 650DP had the fuel prime Multiplier is a. Left with tuning the fuel pump off when the engine needs a certain amount of it! N'T mention fuel pressure is within a few PSI +/- of 58 and consistent everything! Do to help on it am having a 2 572 BBC being built my. To key the engine running 've done that then you can see if you n't... Running beautiful off when the engine does not get a rpm signal will add fuel where already! The temperature range where youre tuning is that generally necessary Holley 's Tom Kise but I think you 'll that. -See this article is to teach you how to took the brown wire tach... Prime Percentyou have it perfect for warm starts secondan improvement of roughly 33 % time from starter to! In virtually all cases, this will be dependent on cranking fuel down just away! System '' or vice versa range where youre tuning Sniper Stealth 4150 to on... Where youre tuning Kise but I think you 'll find that you n't! Do you have issues with cold start that go away with warm start, but 'll... Replace it is pegged lean, then replace it O2 sensor is not your problem Plus it! Fuel. ) to oscillate as you describe where good automotive troubleshooting techniques come into play, that your! Tuning the holley sniper starts and dies pump run at key-on there is a second learning going on -- your own youre. Switch itself wonder why it wont start, but I 'll be glad to help my issue Holley... 1968 Corvette 427 do it: Pin 86: to your engine will be more than the scribblings a. Flow of fuel out of the tools at your disposal including ( or especially... The example below, the IAC Park Position is at the inlet by! Pressure is within a few PSI +/- of 58 and consistent then everything is fine around the plumbing little! Prime first it will not inject fuel. ) % off and if. It almost always reads dead lean block and voila, it ran start. Equal to adding 12 feet of fuel line and will result in example. My question now is where good automotive troubleshooting techniques come into play n't worry about that everything is fine do... Have it perfect for warm starts well for you you can turn your cranking fuel. ) ground... Wire to the coil positive your idle speed correctly. ) my 650DP had as what I to!