He graduated from UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI / SCHOOL OF MEDICINE in 1995. Indeed, this shows that this is just an argument from conjecture, with Christie arbitrarily selecting his own godly criterion for what makes up the Old Testament. More on that in a moment. There are a lot of great resources at catholic.com. How do we know Andrew and Peter are brothers? But I think Steve would agree the word adelphos typically means a person has the same biological father and mother and of course, Steve doesnt believe that because he believes Jesus has no biological father. Do it right now. Good day, Steve. Did their authors believe God had stopped speaking decades or centuries earlier? Themissionof Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. Yeah. Chris Christie is one of six Catholics among the 17 candidates running for the Republican nomination in the crowded 2016 presidential race. Thats right. 18. As Trent Horn stated in his debate against Dr. James White, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. Thats Sola Scriptura, folks, and I agree with him as did the Apostle Paul and the first century Roman Church. Let no one dwell in their tents. This is later applied in Acts 120, but not to a group of people, to an individual, namely Judas. But when the Bible talks about a firmament, that talks about an ancient, incorrect view of the heavens. (Horn V. Christie). So summarize, the Bible does not teach that Mary sin nor does it teach that every single human being has committed a sin or inherited original sin without exception. After completing several real estate transactions, Stephen discovered that the agents' work ethics . Thats all it is. He says for Trent, which Marion dogma was or is the hardest for you to accept? All right. A person could be a Protestant, because we have to understand what a Protestant is and we have to go back to the Reformation for it. Well, right. Even if it is talking about sin, if its talking about being saved from sin before one came into existence, preemptively saved, then it still fits the context. And eventually those ended up being dropped throughout the debate. Finally, as H.G.L. How do we know this from the New Testament? So theres nothing in scripture that contradicts that. Ravi Zacharias has long been recognized as one of the most respected of Christian apologists. Those are both problematic. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac" ( Gen 17:20-21 ). Also death is not a sign of being a sinner, as Steve alluded to earlier. First Corinthians chapter seven, again, it says, For a season in order to separate, but then it says, So that you go back, married couples to go back so you do not get tempted by Satan because of your lack of self-control. He might say that its unlikely, he doesnt accept it, but theres no contradiction also if she is thankful to God for being preemptively saved from sin. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Nangungunang mga yugto ng podcast If she was immaculately conceived, wouldnt she have known that she was the version from Isaiah 7:14? Something went wrong with your request. When it came to the immaculate conception, Steve did not really put forward any argument to show Mary sinned herself. I think thats really terrific. Gary Habermas: The Minimal Facts Approach To The Resurrection (June, 2013) Video Link . January 07, 1964. I dont know how you would feel. The first is if you are watching right now and you are not yet subscribed to this YouTube channel, click subscribe, click the bell button. This is an example of eisegesis and known as a typology thats used a lot of times by Catholic apologists. Some people dont die at all. So Steve even admits that Jesus is an exception to the claims about the universality of sin. That children at a young age do not commit personal sins. Well, it uses the Greek word for brother. The Buffalo Bills officially signed Christie to a one-day contract, thus to retire as a Buffalo Bill. Hofstra University, +1 more. The immaculate conception, should we dogmatize should we not?, It is going to go back to what you believe about the authority of the Magisterium. Okay, Trent. WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon - Kindle edition by Christie, Steve. In 2015 Christie was named Executive Director of Sports at Mastermind Lounge, LLC. We must be careful, of course, that in Marion devotion, sometimes people use very flowery language that they shouldnt necessarily be taken literally because they love Mary as the mother of God who leads us to her son. I guess, after the New Testament, I guess heres a fun question, which of the church fathers would you be okay with preaching at your church? Lets see, in Catholic Answers encyclopedia, it says that Andrew, the brother of Peter, is also called the son of Jonah. Just a shameless plug, like I said, Im an author of two books. Well, Scripture seems silent on the matter, not resolved, but at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, then I would say we should treat the Marian dogmas like youre a Protestant. And then Steve, because Steve, I can tell that youve really wrestled with what Catholicism teaches. It says in the plural, May their camp be a desolation. It does not show that. on And the same is true for us, that Mary was free from sin, but she still had an earthy body. This contradicts the last dogma of the Bodily Assumption of Mary to Heaven infallibly defined ex cathedra by Pope Pius the 12th in 1950, which states after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven, which strongly implies she died first. After chemotherapy and radiation treatments in Buffalo, he underwent two successful surgeries at the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio. And if he had met sister-in-law, such as Marys sister in John chapter 19, he wouldve utilize the Greek word, [Greek 00:47:36] thats used in the book of Ruth to describe Orpahs relationship with Ruth. We honor our father who is in heaven, and we give honor to Mary, who is the mother of God that brought our savior into the world. As far as Jesus brothers and sisters, I probably have studied that more than anything else and that would probably be the hardest for me to accept or maybe Mary being sinless because I mean, Trent, you got a seven year old, its like is as good as a kid as he is based on who his parents are. Okay. And again, just to give an example in the Septuagint, in the Book of Sirach, which is inspired for Trent, but its not inspired for me, it uses the Greek word [Greek 00:47:52], which is a masculine form of [Greek 00:47:55] when it says, Hail Mary, full of grace. And its used to describe a man who is full of grace. . None of that is required by Greek grammar or what the verses say. In the early church, there was a heretical sect called the [Cororidians 01:25:03] and [Epiphanias 01:25:05] condemns them. You talked a little about in Adam, all die, but notice here there are exceptions. But it doesnt demand for that though. So the idea that its fitting that Mary be immaculately conceived, it pushes the dial a little, but its by no means a proof. A Response to Pastor Chip Thornton's Anti-Catholic Newspaper Article. But you will search in vain for Ammorites, Jebusites or Hittites. If anything, Revelation chapter 12 verses one through six describes Mary being in heaven. For example, Jesus said among those born of women none was greater than John the Baptist (Luke 7:28)and John was not a Pharisee. And again, scripture states, Because Jesus is God is why he would not inherit sin like Mary did, because Mary is not God, unless Trent is going in that direction, which I dont think it is. So I think that was an excellent opening statement. Make an Appointment People are familiar with this one about why Protestant Bibles are smaller. Book now for free with CMG Booking. And this was a dogmatic constitution of the church by Pope Paul VI. Yet, if Mary did not inherit the stain of original sin passed down from Adam, she would not have died and therefore no need to rescue her from death before her earthly life ended. G.K. Chesterton - famous author, philosopher, theologian, apologist. I would say that Steves comment, well, I dont think that the church is just a collection of believers and I dont think that the church ceases to exist. In fact, as Baptist scholar Lee Mcdonald points out, the book of Malachi only implores its listeners to remember the law of Moses, which would be strange if there were a fixed set of writings established by Ezra called the prophets at this time. Steve Jordahl, Billy Davis. I didnt bring up [Greek 00:52:36]. The son of Jonah? I think there is good reason to believe that, but thats not what were debating today. In fact, the Protestant reformers, John Calvin said of Matthew 1:25, No just and well grounded inference can be drawn from these words of the evangelist as to what took place after the birth of Christ. Martin Luther even called this argument against Marys Perpetual Virginity based on Matthew 1:25 babble and without justification. You mean the son of John? Christie requested his release from Jacksonville after a week in camp hoping to retire, but signed with the New York Giants a day later, playing what would be his final NFL season. Thanks for correcting me on that, Trent. My argument is how the word adelphos is specifically is used to the New Testament Greek. In response to that quote, James White began to bring up all kinds of irrelevant issues, such as my belief in the assumption of Mary, to try to say that I dont really believe in this principle. I will take away their sins. Now, as I said, we do find this in other roughly contemporary literature. Also the Greek word for brother, its not always you to represent full brothers. When Mary said, I know not man, in Luke 1:34, does this indicate a vow of perpetual virginity? Man commits idolatry when he honors and reviews a creature in place of God. And what I would say here is that I agree that use of [inaudible 01:22:20] in Luke 1:28 does not prove the doctrine of the immaculate conception. Yeah. Can I quickly make a [inaudible 01:23:12]. Follow him on Twitter: @sean_mcdowell and his blog: seanmcdowell.org. But once again, we wouldnt assume Go ahead. But this dogma would still be a contradiction if Mary remained alive before assumption, since the biblical purpose of an assumption is so the individual would not see death because this dogma affirms the Immaculate Conception of Mary did not inherit original sin passed down to Adam to all of mankind. Those that have been infallibly defined to be part of divine revelation. Youre talking about giving someone salvation prior to their sins? The NAB, a Catholic translation authorized by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and approved by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference supports this. Heres a question that I have that Id be interested in both of you answering. In the 2000 season, Christie was an instrumental part of the Bills' eight victories. So its not saying that he died. Even if Mary were speaking of salvation from sin, she may be speaking about God, preventing her from sinning and saving her in that way, like we might say how a doctor saved someone from a disease by vaccinating them, rather than by giving them a pill to cure them after the infection. But its still the first movie. Moreover, there was diversity of thought among Jews until the second century after Christ over what constituted the Hebrew canon. And Steve and I also both agreed that the universality of things like sin or death dont preclude exceptions. Now Steve mentioned and many other Protestants allude to Matthew 1:24-25, which says When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him. Okay. As far as original sin, if you look at catholic.com, the encyclopedia, it states that The Second Council of Orange, it states that, The death of the body, which is the punishment for sin. In other words, sin results in death of the body. And more importantly, thats not what we are debating. Christie is currently President of Relative Goal Sports and Entertainment Management LLC., certified as a Canadian Football League contract advisor and has represented numerous musical acts in both the United States and Scotland. In fact, when it is used in the Septuagint to talk about people who have different fathers or mothers, it is only ever used to describe people in the case of half siblings, of having different fathers, not different mothers . No, Im not saying that the use of the definite article means that Mary had only one child. Id have to respond individually. So I think its important that each of us, we dont have a problem with We might have a problem how to apply it but the basic level mother of God isnt contradicted by scripture. He put that on his glorified resurrection body after the resurrection. Christie kicked a successful onside kick, which he recovered himself (becoming the first placekicker ever to do so in an NFL playoff game), and also kicked the game-winning 32-yard field goal in overtime. So thats also a bad argument. So theyre different contexts to examine, but thats not what were debating, whether scripture teaches it. And one little historical note so that people Theres a bit of a myth here. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. And so I would say if youre a Protestant, for Protestants and Catholics, if the Marian dogmas can occupy at least that place. Your generous donations are tax-deductible. After leaving the Bills after the 2000 season, Christie played with the Chargers and Giants. And then hopefully, in my next turn, Ill be able to address some of the other arguments that Steve has raised. In his 15 NFL seasons, Christie converted 336 of 431 (77%) field goals and 468 of 473 (98%) extra points, giving him a total of 1,476 points. So were not talking about translations of the Bible. Alright? Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon Trent Horn Vs Steve Christie Debate, The Canon of Scripture Debate Part 1 Gary Michuta (Catholic) vs. Steve Christie (Protestant), Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller with Steve Christie. If it was an eyewitness account, I suppose someone would had to have been informed about that. Im not saying thats a required view, but its a quite plausible one. He was a key contributor in the Bills comeback win against the Houston Oilers, in which Buffalo rallied from a 32-point deficit[2] to complete the largest comeback victory in NFL history. Thank you very much, Trent. Because as Steve agreed with me in this debate, the Greek word adelphos can mean adoptive sibling or half sibling. Its nice to be able to go through all of these scripture passages. So the Immaculate Conception does not contradict scripture then. The Bible doesnt say that apostles are baptized, but it certainly seems quite fitting that they would be given everything else. And the other issue is a fact, is that even though a Pope would not be allowed to declare something that goes against what the magisterium teaches and the magisterium I doubt would ever teach about worshiping Mary, whats interesting is that according to Lumen Gentium, it says that even when the Pope is not speaking ex cathedral, you must actually listen to what the Pope says. We should only offer that to the father and the holy sacrifice of the mass. There is an article, I might share this soon, by a Catholic philosopher, Jack Mulder, where he talks about, Mary being immaculate conceived, its fitting and may be required because that way, Mary is perfectly able to consent to become pregnant with our savior. Rather, this counterfeit Mary developed over several centuries based on false typologies, which conflict with Scripture, no different than what Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, and Muslims have done with Jesus. He then went on to kick five field goals in the Bills 29-10 win over the Miami Dolphins in the AFC championship game, helping Buffalo get to their third consecutive Super Bowl. All right. Lets see how much we can get through. Add another name to the list of Buffalo Bills greats who have endured a traumatic 2014.The Bills' all-time greatest kicker, Steve Christie, Ex-Bills kicker Steve Christie reveals his successful . Instead, we should listen to Christ, his apostles, and the Church they founded for the answer to what constitutes Sacred Scripture. I think it provides strong evidence for it. No, it doesnt. All right. We have to remember that. His primary concern is to simply say that Jesus had no earthly father. So it is quite shocking. Yeah. None of the authors of the deuterocanonical books refer to a delineated list of writings (Hebrew, Ketuvim) within a closed Hebrew canon that did not include their own works. Okay, you can start now. And Steve has said, Well, we know theres an exception because the Bible says that Jesus is the exception. So clearly, then, that means the Bible can make universal statements, but sources of divine revelation can give us those exceptions. Thats why he says theres no distinction among people in verse 22 or in Romans 3:9 Paul says All men, both Jews and Greeks are under the power of sin.. Now in the Septuagint as well as in the New Testament, adelphos is used to talk about people who have the same father but different mothers. The second man Christ is from heaven as is the earthy Adam so also are those who are earthy and as is the heavenly Christ so also are those who are heavenly. Thread info Bookmark this thread Trash this thread. He was put on a cross. Ye, because Jesus younger half sibling was Joseph while Jesus father was God. So you can use the app for three months before deciding whether its worth your time and money. Perhaps John witnessed this event and then told others or this may have been given to John through some other kind of revelation. Prototokos, I dont have a problem with the term, meaning first out of the womb, but in Luke chapter two versus 22 to 23, this is a different event. In the declaration on the specific dogma, the immaculate conception of Mary, theres absolutely nothing in the dogma itself that says anything that this part is infallible. Im really enjoying this. When Mary declared God, my savior. In Luke 1:47, she understood that Jesus was the savior to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins, in Acts 5:31 and in Titus 2:9-11, which included her own. Like infant baptism, the cessation of charismatic gifts, for example. Be sure to check out Steve's speech at Wyohackathon.io it was a very interesting talk about the history of money. Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. The dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary contradicts scripture in the following ways. Christies argument continues to fall apart because it assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity into his ministry as an apostle. Well done. Christie also served as an analyst for The Score Television Network. Do you still have it? If anything like the parents hes a good kid, but I cant imagine by the age of seven that his oldest child hasnt sinned one time. I only have to prove there is no contradiction. According to Old Testament scholar Otto Kaiser, the deuterocanonical books presuppose the validity of the Law and the Prophets and also utilize the Ketubim or Writings collection which was, at the time, still in the process of formation and not yet closed (Old Testament Apocrypha, 2). David K. Clark - apologist with notable books; teaches at Bethel Seminary. Yeah, no, fair enough. On the signing, Christie pointed out that one reason for joining the team was "basically doing Michael (Clemons) a favour" as a former college teammate and that it was tentatively for one game. Well, actually one other point I will bring up is that some people say the Bible teaches that Mary sinned, because it describes her going and offering a purification in accord with the Mosaic law. Jesus is never referred to as a preemptive savior, but as a redeeming, delivering savior, which includes redeeming and delivering Mary from her sins. Psalm 132:8 says Arise, Lord, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might. Can you describe the ark?. What about the other Marian Dogmas? And these brothers still struggle on the same land 3,800 years later. 9035 SW 72nd St Ste 102 Miami, FL 33173. It can also refer to a half sibling as well, such as in the Old Testament, the word for brother is used to refer to Ruben as being the brother of his half brothers. Its a word that really should be used strictly for God. Submit to my authority. And I could talk about what that verse means in a lot of different context, but what is the difference between being sinful and becoming sin? In Luke 1:28, the angel uses it as a descriptor of Mary within a personal address, similar to how John the Baptist used the lamb of God to speak about Jesus, and that talks about the significance there. Just today, Hallow uploaded my Lo-Fi music to their app. In Speaking for the Unborn, Dr. Steven Christie offers very clear, convincing, and often witty answers to almost every possible argument in favor of abortion. (Horn V. Christie) About Ap315: The mission of Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. Timothy Michael Law, who serves as the co-editor of the Oxford Handbook on the Septuagint, says the deuterocanonical books were included in the Septuagint and that it would also be mistaken to imagine that they have never been read as divine Scripture.. Second Corinthians is clear, God made him who knew no sin to become sin for us. Steve Ray is a Apologetics, Convert, Evangelist travelling from , Michigan. Brant Pitre has some great work on Mary as well for people to check out. We see this in Zechariah 12:10, where it talks about, They look on him who theyve pierced. Maybe a little too much. And the fact that Trent is saying that the holy family would not need to apply to that, hes imputing his Catholic theology into the text. He also did color commentary for the University at Buffalo Bulls football team on WECK radio. So to summarize then Steve Well, actually lets see. I do talk about how much evidence that Greek word has for the immaculate conception, and I also note in my book its use in the Book of Sirach. There might be historical errors, for example, in some magisterial documents, talking about the history of a doctrine, whether a certain saint or father believed X, Y, or Z. Infallibility has a narrow sense and only covers what is specifically defined. Born Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. We now are going to have four minute rebuttals. Probably not like any other piece of wood. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. Isaiah 49:26 describes God as savior and Redeemer echoed in Galatians 4:4-5. I want to comment on his use of the word veneration. As I said before, these could be adoptive siblings. Because I know every one of these points you could go back and forth on a lot, but lets try to keep it to just the main response and then a response to the response. Thanks. Thank you very much, Trent. Yeah. James White: Steve Ray is a Dolt, Dunce, Imbecile, Idiot, and Ignoramus *** [] What is clear is that Ray has not seriously interacted with anything other than this kind of "Jack Chick/Dave Hunt . But anyways, Im going to come back to that. Reply to this thread. Christie eventually got cut on October 4. I had mentioned about the immaculate conception not being declared ex cathedra because this was before Vatican I in 1870 that declared that when a Pope declared something ex cathedra, then its considered infallible. The experience of over thirty years of singing professionally has taught him how to tune into the lover that lives in us all. Well, theres Pokemon The First Movie, and it was so bad, there were no other movies. Sure. On the one hand he could show the Bible teaches the opposite of these dogmas regarding Mary as an individual. As the Apostle Paul wrote in his fourth chapter in his epistle to the Roman church, For what does Scripture say? Some Protestants cast out on the Marian Dogmas by claiming they dont appear early enough in church history to count as being apostolic. Many Protestant scholars say Wis-dom 2 either contains a messianic prophecy or Matthew used this passage as a template when he described Jesus crucifixion. Because thats what the Catholic Answers encyclopedia states. Please click that. 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