No, I saw your list. Thanks for your follow-up comment. New TWW post. The pain is awful, particularly when loved ones have been snatched away because someone foolishly chose to drink and drive. @ Velour: To say that this is the reason he abuses alcohol is obfuscating the real fact that not everyone who goes through tragedy becomes an alcoholic. Look at Pauls comment about a little leaven. But to just say that someone with a drinking/substance abuse problem in the church should be publicly humiliated is NOT how substance abuse is supposed to be handled or treated. They have their own logic, and its different from yours. Also, I am never remotely tempted to pretend that I could give up insulin or that I dont have a problem controlling my blood sugar. I even pointed out that books BY people who are MHPs themselves mention cautions to their readers to be careful when doctor shopping because, they say, some MHPs are inept or charlatans. Many resources already exist and are perfectly fine. So whether he sobers up or not the focus needs to be on doing whatever is necessary to prevent him from scheming his way back into ministry where he will be given the opportunity of committing more spiritual abuse. He pleaded no contest to one and the rest were dismissed. is playing right into his hands and giving him exactly what he wants. And the policy among some here to kick them out and to the curb is indeed a Dark Ages policy and shows a complete lack of education on the subject. I sustained a skull fracture (from which I could have died had I not undergone surgery quickly), broken toes, a broken pinky, as well as several fractured vertebrae in my neck. Sounds like needs a blood transfusion! The household finances are frequently a wreck too. Even finds reasons for crying out loud. Bridget wrote: Barbara trotted out the classic evangelical line that people with these problems arent real Christians, arent bearing fruit, etc. No prison time. I think youre seeing something in their posts that is not there, or are misunderstanding their post. So I agree with Barbara, but not just because RC Jr is an alcoholic but for much much more than that. I wholeheartedly agree with your comment. Just as I pray for them, too. Tolerable and safe is probably the best you can hope for. Hopefully someone close to Lisa Sproul is following this thread and may encourage her to attend. Thanks, Okrapod, for posting the quote you were referring to. If anything, youve shown a nasty attitude on this thread to a few others, and now to me. From 1 Cor. He has used his position of authority and harmed people. In fact, they need to drink quantities, just to feel normal and function normally. But then (if Im remembering right), at some point in the progression of the disease, they cross some boundary and reach the point where they cant hold their liquor anymore. After looking at the church website, I could find no indication that it was a Foursquare church; however, I did find this which has the same Pine Hills Church listed and has Foursquare shown at the top of the site. Do people who have alcoholism or other issues get passes from rules and standards that apply to everyone else? RC Jr., of course, was top dog in the congregation(s) he led because of his fathers reputation and influence, maybe? Prayer Requests Velour was strongly pushing people on this thread for a good long time regardless of motive, which none of us were privy too until someone much later on asked her if this topic triggered her in some fashion. Is is with a licensed professional whos trained and qualified in alcoholism? You havent talked to everyone (not even close) so how could you make such assumptions? I will not go to a church that has such Dark Ages practices. God in his infinite mercy intervened and all three children in this home were saved. . I noticed the same kinds of barbs being dished out over there, so its not just this blog, this issue, this thread, and me in particular. She may not have much say over what he does, especially anything involving his children. I said, Sproul Jr. has suffered tragedies, yes. I pray one day my conscience will grow stronger, so that this wouldnt be necessary. RC2 started his own brand of churches after he was defrocked by his fathers group. You might like to listen to them. Ive been a ligonier for years . So glad you are with us today. You said, When asked we can offer suggestions where they might find help.. ^The quote above belongs to Daisy, not Gail, and there was a goof in the block quotes. I feel as though I was being unjustly attacked by her. Sr. cant make Jr. stop drinking. To the best of my knowledge she does not have training in the subject of alcoholism. Barbra said that R.C. Every person is different. Church counseling may be harmful at times, but my experience (and my familys experience) with secular programs or treatment has not always been successful, either. Sproul 2 has his own household and is not part of his fathers household. Change), You are commenting using your Twitter account. Can you imagine for one second the shame and embarrassment of having everyone know that your mom is a fall down drunk? Very well stated. I shouldnt have used the term unpleasant because Al-Anon isnt that at all. I was only thinking of verse 11. Any time Ive ever gone to a church, what normally happens is I attend a Sunday School class where a teacher raises some topic (not pertaining to alcoholism), then I go and sit in the large worship area where I listen to a rock band play. I do wonder why so many people continue to support R.C. In fact, in my post there last Monday I express outrage about how PCA churches are often excommunicating victims of domestic abuse for divorcing their abusers. If Junior makes the same mistake that the drunk driver who hit us did, R.C. I think solid Christian formation is far more productive and healing than the miserable anecdotes I hear about of Church discipline which seems so negative and punitive and results in public SHAMING, something that is very destructive for any person So it makes it very difficult to believe theres anything genuine about it now. I have more than a few alcoholics in my family, some of whom have passed away, possibly a direct or indirect effect of the alcohol. He needs a skill-intervention by those people around him. where have we seen that before? Youre wrong. (LogOut/ I would tend to agree with her about this person, assuming that he has, as some have claimed, publicly and speaking from some position of religious prominence defended his actions. Its about loving the wayward soul back to being restored. Velour, you are assuming Barbara is saying that based on his alcoholism. She just soaked up the love in the very back and left each time. Sproul, founder of Ligonier Ministries, theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and pastor, died. I agree that Sproul 2 shouldnt be enabled by his father, Sproul 1. Under what circumstances did you become aware of alcohol abuse in these people-that might be a tip off. I realize that our understanding of addiction today does make it complex, but I am just frustrated with the hypocrisy that makes us look pathetic to non-believers. I dont like the other idea of other people having to go about on pins and needles because of my weaknesses. @ Julie Anne: Those cannot be used as an excuse. (He is not driving) I guess maybe thats how this crazy high drinking starts, but imagine drinking a case or two of beer in a day? Sproul 2. There are, perhaps, one or two differences between Type 1 diabetes and alcoholism. Because I have had my nose rubbed in Sproul Jrs teaching for a couple of decades, I took my own understanding from what she said, quite the opposite of the one you seem to have taken. I advised him that with Jesus help he could choose not to walk that path. The church should do their level-best to get help for his wife and children. 1. Since many of his abuses of people appear to be in front of the entire church, than at some point in his recovery besides making individual amends he should be making public amends, with the help of a sponsor guiding him in the process. Should you have been kicked out of church because you struggled with depression, anxiety, or any other problem? That is making it something comprehensive rather than case specific. Hurting people.. can be either used wisely or used combatively depending on the circumstances. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). Ive seen the terrible impacts of alcohol abuse in my family, beginning with just a beer at the picnic to full-fledged alcoholism with many consequences. 13 God judges[b] those outside. And it made us see that the pain we had experienced with our oldest son could be used for good.href=#comment-329312 title=Go to comment of this author>Velour: Your situation reminds us that there are excuses and there are reasons and your real anxiety over your daughters illness was a REASON, not an excuse for medicating .. you were right to get help and thank God you did. I get the same apples and oranges feeling someone else mentioned. Sputter. The ceiling didnt come crashing down and God didnt scream from the rafters, Sinners, the lot of you! What will other alcoholics in the pews do or substance abusers who are struggling? After he left St. Peter Presbyterian in 2010 to move to Orlando and join Ligonier Ministries he also part-time preached at a couple of tiny churches started by others, the first of which he was shown the door for stealing church moneys, and the second of which was started by a personal friend of his. Barbara made the comment to H.U.G. Loving accountability along the way always helps prevent expulsion because it can guard against backsliding. You tried to paint me with the same brush, but I happened to read your response and corrected you. However, that is how I see that particular passage: social danger to others, or more than looks and testimony. I did check the link that H.A. For me it falls under the love one anothers to direct a person into substance abuse treatment as well as to care for their family and to guide them to appropriate help. And Im not starting. They loved her. I would be interested in writing a post about. Hes like Driscoll and so many others. Because if everyone drinks like he does, it then becomes NORMAL! Robert Charles Sproul was born February 13, 1939, in Pittsburgh, the son of Robert Cecil and Mayre Ann (n e Yardis) Sproul. You are also incorrect that I am putting Barbara down because I disagree with her. His drunkenness just by itself disqualified RC2 from being a leader. This just goes to show what can happen when you have related people working in a ministry like this. Im not incorrect. I also see your point, that his family might be better off if he got treatment. And I agree with #3 the kicker is, does HE want treatment? When people are discussing or pointing this out many people begin to think they are the only seeing these problems when multiple people have these same views. -Which will bum Velour out for me to say, because she thinks Im not chipper and positive enough about things, but I am stating my reality. The Sprouls lived in an extremely rural town called Mendota. I suppose those who loved his late father, R.C. That would probably fall to the individual him or herself and/or their family. Has that been reported on or discussed? Sounds like needs a blood transfusion! That was not my post or quote. It is my prayer that others whove been hurt find assurance in Gods peace. Welcome to TWW. having some things to answer for. Yes,?, no?, I dont know ? an invitation to share his/her story. OK, well, Im not sure if I am in agreement with that view or not. Well, now look at this: pic.twitter.com/KBEkiBnVkG. It is impressive and respectable when one man has the confidence to tell a group of men ((NO)) to drinking when he does not want to or talking vulgar with the boys. In this particular case, RC2, there is more involved than just the alcohol issue. ~ja]. job loss). I would ask that you not use it again though. I am grateful that R.C. Of course not. \ Maybe, in other words, theyre treating the paid guy in the pulpit exactly the same as theyd treat the least of Jesus siblings. I have known people in 12 step programs getting involved in churches to help maintain their spiritual program of recovery along those lines. These need compassion. also claimed a bunch of other nonsense, none of it true in how help works.). Although the church is not an official Foursquare church, it appears they are welcoming of the charismatic gifts. If you think gossip is on the same level, go turn all of the gossipers you know in to the police. Did they brag about how much they can drink, allude to their prowess with the bottle? Velour wrote: In my comments, in case you missed them, I also talked about the importance of churches seeking professional advice for dealing with pastors (or other members) who have substance abuse problems. The churches we worked with said they could not handle the work we did. Not only did Christian solutions not work for my depression and anxiety (prayer didnt work, Bible reading didnt work, God did not heal me, etc), but neither did the psychiatrists, psychologists, or the medications I utilized for many years. She also lost her two front teeth, among other serious injuries. ( Im a Harvest Bible Chapel member and I keep up with all things JMAC). @ Velour: Odds are remote that RC Jr will ever go, but the CR program can be extremely helpful to family members. John was born. 123). @ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar): Plus I dont like the way it makes me feel. Hi Julie Anne, So I was only saying what the Bible says. H.A. NO, there is no authoritative oversight, for a couple of reasons. So I was only saying what the Bible says. Sproul, Jr. to capitalize on his father's recent death and pull the heartstrings of those who admired his father is inappropriate. I am very familiar with alcoholism and raising the bottom on alcoholics and not enabling their behavior. The accusation about St. Peter Presbyterian Church being a cult and RC Sproul Jr being a cult leader was widely assumed for years in Bristol, Virginia especially among pastors in the area. One little drink wont hurt is tragically wrong. I am sorry that you do not feel that you got any good help for your situation. She may have been confused and thought I wrote that I myself have been banned from your blog, which I never wrote or said. I guess human pain all has to go somewhere until it ends up at the Cross where it can be laid down so it cannot hurt anyone else. Find an obituary, get service details, leave condolence messages or send flowers or gifts in memory of a loved one. I definitely agree with #1 and #2. Okrapod is a doctor re: Sr. can keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit: This is not true. Wonder what will happen to churches or SBC leaders if they are not willing to sign off on this resolution? Some people, for example, may be convinced that consuming alcohol is against Gods law. She just soaked up the love in the very back and left each time. I think that is the kindest thing I can do for them as they are the weaker one/s in this regard. The church. Did they brag about how much they can drink, allude to their prowess with the bottle? I know 10 years ago if someone indicated a drinking or drug problem I would simply recommended AA or NA or rehab, where at that time they would most likely be directed to attend 12 step meetings after treatment. My thing has always been to understand that the addict is probably hurting others and thats not OK. I never found any of that helpful in coping with depression, anxiety, or grief after my mother died. It has nothing to do with the point that blaming the father for the sins of the son is not logical To say the least . Would your answer remain the same? I would agree that Sproul shouldnt be disqualified due to his ADULT sons issues. Maybe Barbara would support all that stuff is it fair to base your arguments on silence? Im also responsible for furnishing Dee with the MADD letter. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. I would agree the church in the dark ages had a very bad reputation when it came to church discipline, Spanish Inquisition and all that. Who Where Receive obituaries Virginia M. Peterson February 25, 2023 (95 years old) View obituary Jean Mastroianni February 22, 2023 View obituary Francis Koprivnikar The same woman surgeon from before and a woman anesthesiologist and more women in scrubs packed into the OR than I thought necessary-but they have their reasons. Yes to all. I didnt know about his second marriage. Weve all seen it, and if you havent then count yourself fortunate. Is there still a scar? We had missionaries , elders and some pastors come to our group, they were in such pain and could not share in their Christian communities. If yes, please consider going to at least six Al-Anon meetings (theyre free) for the family and friends of problem drinkers. Put that drink away now! Here as I type these words, there is a bottle of wine sitting on the kitchen counter within my view. My father also struggled with drinking, he could and did say some of the most God awful things to us kids etc. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. Yes, job loss should happen for Sproul 2, but with the church directing him and supporting him into treatment. Yes, I remember being part of a group meeting where a social worker talked to a crowd of us about how to deal with an alcoholic in our group. It works some of the time. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindlernot even to eat with such a one. Alcohol can kill, it can ruin marriages and finances and it's a waste of Gods finances but that is all my personal opinion. Sproul was founder of Ligonier Ministries, first minister of preaching and teaching at Saint Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Fla., and first president of R Dr. R.C. The responsibility of a pastor/leader is FAR greater, not less. We had a great time together. Being a drunkard is just a symptom of some much deeper issues. Perhaps you are being blinded by the guys alcohol addiction. Barbara Roberts wrote: I dont drink alcohol. But here may be a hint. He needs to be in an in-patient treatment program. Can you find out for us if this was a New Calvinist takeover thing? The woman who hit us was found guilty of manslaughter and served time in prison. I know that you have been negatively impacted by your family members alcoholism. No, I saw your list. They display all of the signs.). No. What was it like in my Patriarchal home, you ask? When someone and his behavior is a threat to self and others then that person and his behavior have to be dealt with, as a danger, and strong steps must be taken. The churches we worked with said they could not handle the work we did. Have child protection services been properly notified and satisfied? I will not go to a church that has such Dark Ages practices. She stated in her comment to H.U.G. Double ouch. Under Sproul's direction, Ligonier Ministries produced the Ligonier Statement on Biblical inerrancy, which would eventually grow into the 1978 Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, of which Sproul, alongside Norman Geisler, was one of the chief architects. You can be sure that Barbara, Dee, and I sit on a lot of information that never gets released to the public. RC Sproul Jr fostered a culture of heavy drinking at St. Peter Presbyterian Church, not just with church members but also with the pastors he invited to his "Pastor Camps" (open barswere the norm). The objective and end goal must always be repentance unto restoration. But I dont exactly see her saying say, Kick them out of the church! either. at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. Im not entirely sure why its considered relevant by Velour in talking to Barbara about RC Jr., though. Yes, indeed; RC Sproul Snr (and his buddy MacArthur) is one of the most dangerous false teachers around, spewing forth a false gospel; and wasnt he the one who had advocated that Christians (his version of it) should watch filthy movies and so on? It is natural for a father to want to protect a child from the consequences of their actions but at some point in time when the child keeps doing this the parent has let them experience the consequences. Would it help your perspective any to know that RC Jr has unjustly excommunicated entire families, and were not just talking a few, including small children, for the alleged sins of their parents? When Barbara starts off her comment with Ha Ha and trots out Scripture verses, and never makes mention of treatment for alcoholism and for the family members, than she will get push back from me too. The Steve Hassen Youtube link helps explain that. The best thing for him and those in his orbit, his incarceration. I find that the best part of blogging. I havent even been posting much to this blog in the last few months. After he became the scapegoat and the Father had imputed to him every sin of every one of his people, the most intense, dense concentration of evil ever experienced on this planet was exhibited. But please dont assume that I am not for treatment. For example: Everyone who knows him confesses how genuinely repentant of a person he is and how quick he is to admit his failures. Sorry dear, but you couldnt be more wrong. Some of us do know him, and some of us knew him far longer than you have. Enabling him will help kill him, and that is no kindness. Many in the SBC hold to substitutionary atonement but not PENAL substitutionary atonement. Perhaps on my wedding anniversary. But her children have been wounded and scarred. That feels like another put down and Im really uncomfortable with it. all my kids of alcoholics now use my term stupid juice for alcohol because your intelligent parent becomes an intellectual & moral moron when drinking & think they can lie with impunity. If nothing else get a dose of reality. I see this correction has been made. The authors said said that RC Jnr needs serous treatment which I assume was a typo because they meant he needs serious treatment., Serous means to do with blood. (Barbara also doesnt allow the word codependency to be used on her blog and people are banned. So, does Dr. Sproul consider alcohol to be a gift from the Lord? No its not. @ Claire: Im comfortable with my apostasy, you make being an unbeliever sound bad. I said in my post that the topic is banned on your blog (which is a shame, because learning about it has helped me immensely. In fact in his case it goes much further than it went with you. No, they dont criticize non-drinkers and they dont make excuses for their drinking. How do you see it different from me? and I have a problem with the Bible. There are many programs that are funded by grants and charitable donations to pay for these services. I have with Dee, and you can also gain some insights from the article itself. Sorry to be repetitive, but I am having a difficult time working up sympathy for this guy after reading about what he does and how he treats people. If he Sproul gets clean and sober he will probably ditch many ideas that he used to justify including patriarchy. I was right I needed to read that passage in I Corinthians 5 again. agreed: if a person does not want to stop drinking, they cant be forced; but if the person gets into enough trouble (ie. It lets him off the hook for all the spiritual abuse and leaves him free to weasel his way back into ministry once the dust settles. My experience with my brother had no religious component. Born Robert Charles Sproul on February 13, 1939 in Pittsburgh, Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, United States, RC, as he became best known, was the son of Robert Cecil Sproul and Mayre Ann Yardis. On the way, we were hit head-on by a drunk driver. 1. your anger is showing, yes Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. I think where we differ is that I did not see Barbaras comment as a blanket endorsement of kicking all addicts/alcoholics out of every church. When you brought up 1 Cor. @ T J Mercer: Yes, they can be a big help but only if the person is dead serious about sobriety. Having their family members go to programs like Al-Anon helps as well, as they learn not to enable the alcoholic and to take care of themselves. Like they were in my lane. Mr F I am not interested in reading the article and getting into a debate on his theology and no I do not believe that sin in RC2 life is caused by his fathers theology. This may or may not be good advice in some cases, but it is certainly not a rule of thumb in that it assumes that the prior trauma caused the current bad behavior of hurting people and assumes that the person cannot help it when they hurt other people, and assumes that some prior trauma is a life time get out of jail free card for when the alleged victim of prior trauma may continue to hurt people. For the first time ever, Ive got the first comment, all the way from England. http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. Cluster groups have been studied at length for things like brain tumors, etc. R.C. Now that Ive been spending more time reading what they write, I am shocked that they have any platform at all. So here it is. 1939 R. C. Sproul was born on February 13, 1939 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA as Robert Charles Sproul. 2. Perhaps on my wedding anniversary. Sproul 2s drinking (and whatever other problems that he has) and an intervention by family and friends with a trained professional. 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